Unemployment changes your core personality, according to study

February 16, 2015 by David Tripp, University of Stirling
Unemployment changes your core personality, according to study

The psychological damage caused by unemployment is greater than previously thought, according to a study led by researchers at the University of Stirling.

Stirling's behavioural scientists have found that , well-known to cause substantial drops in personal wellbeing, can also cause large changes to a person's core personality.

Personality is typically considered stable across time but the researchers found that the experience of unemployment led to reduced levels of conscientiousness, agreeableness, and openness; signifying that individuals lose motivation, become less considerate and sympathetic, and less curious about the world around them. These changes were greater the longer an individual spent unemployed.

Lead researcher Dr Christopher Boyce, from the University of Stirling's Behavioural Science Centre, said: "The results challenge the idea that our personalities are 'fixed' and show that the effects of external factors such as unemployment can have large impacts on our basic personality."

Participants in the study completed at two time-points, four years apart. All participants were employed at the time of the first test. At the time of the second test, they had either remained in employment, been unemployed for one to four years, or were re-employed after a period of unemployment.

The results showed that compared with those who had remained in employment unemployed people experienced significant patterns of change in their agreeableness, conscientiousness and openness. Re-employed individuals experienced limited change.

The study suggests that the effect of unemployment across society is more than just an economic concern. The unemployed may be unfairly stigmatised as a result of unavoidable personality change, potentially creating a downward cycle of difficulty in the labour market. Public policy therefore has a key role to play in preventing adverse personality change in society through both lower unemployment rates and offering greater support for the unemployed.

Dr Boyce said: "A high national may have significant implications across society. For example, high unemployment may hinder the development of desirable social and economic behaviours, such as participation in social activities and better health behaviours.

"Policies to reduce unemployment are therefore vital not only to protect the economy but also to enable positive personality growth in individuals."

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rockyvnvmc
5 / 5 (3) Feb 16, 2015
As a Building Trades Journeyman, I built things for a living and they tend to get completed, resulting in one's having to look afield for another project.
The term 'Journeyman' is archaic, meaning 'follow the work' and we did, having to dislocate ourselves, either by traveling distances, or by having to rent a room, if it was too far to drive.
I spent about 1/3rd of my career out of work, through no fault of my own. Construction is usually seasonal work, especially in the northern climes, wherein I used to reside. We had no seniority, paid vacations, paid holidays, paid sick days, paid anything. If we didn't work, we didn't get paid. As such applying for unemployment was a fact of life & at times food stamps too.
My life has never had any form of stability in it and while at work I risked my life on a regular basis. Did this affect my personality? Most assuredly so, but it only made me stronger & more resilient.
kochevnik
5 / 5 (3) Feb 16, 2015
JOB - Just Over Broke
xstos
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 16, 2015
Working your whole life at a dead end job changes your personality in similar ways.
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (2) Feb 18, 2015
I think if Shakespeare had been born and raised in America these days, he may not have been less critical of lawyers but he certainly would have included capitalist republicans (and DINOs) and elite banksters somehow in the famous line, "The first thing we do, ..."

The effects of an impoverished environment on everything from single celled organisms to lab rats to humans are profoundly deleterious and when applied to humans the effects are beyond cruel and unusual punishment—and being unemployed isn't even a crime...
j______
not rated yet Feb 18, 2015
i'm self employed and can never be unemployed...i just owe myself a life time of back pay. :)

i mean this issue seems like a mental and social construct.

and how does this apply to the retired?
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (1) Feb 19, 2015
i mean this issue seems like a mental and social construct.
Indeed, circa the 17th century. It won't be much longer until the 21st century finally sets in, when Will Work For Free
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (1) Feb 19, 2015
-late edit-

My remark about Shakespeare has [humor] tags if it isn't otherwise obvious as such. I take it for granted people who are science-oriented are smarter than most. I just read a disqus comment in the Truthout forum on an opinion about the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement (which has everything to do with not only employment, but the worldwide eroding compensatory quality thereof, see Fast-Track Treason and the Coming Corporate Coup) that made me laugh: "Sheeesh. Can we start shooting yet?"

I understand the reluctance of some in the Science X forum to tolerate politics because – wait, no, I don't. Anyone who likes science should have no trouble following the example of one of the greatest: Albert Einstein. Please take a minute-and-a-half to read the above link if you care about employment (including self-employment) and share it widely. -cont'd->
Protoplasmix
5 / 5 (2) Feb 19, 2015
-cont'd->

And here are some relevant corporate-military-industrial quotes from Einstein:

Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war.

Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding.

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one.

It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.
Returners
1 / 5 (3) Feb 19, 2015
For example, high unemployment may hinder the development of desirable social and economic behaviours, such as participation in social activities


No shit moron.

Unemployed people are pretty much excluded from doing anything other than eating, shitting, and looking for a new job.

What social structure?
Lose your job and your friends abandon you fast.

And lets not talk about dating, because you won't find a woman who will so much as answer your greeting unless you are very well employed.

"No self respecting woman would ever date an unemployed man." - A woman to me on a dating site after I made the mistake of asking her for her "female expertise".

Returners
2 / 5 (4) Feb 19, 2015
You didn't know that unemployed people are ostracized by civilization?

You didn't know that here in the good old U.S. of A. Being unemployed means you can't afford to do anything at all, and women mock you and call you a "scrub" and htat the "Christian" ones are the worst ones of all?!?

You don't think that might be a we bit detrimental to peoples social interaction and standing eh?

I have a spotless criminal record, have never committed a crime in my life other traffic tickets, and I am marginalized to the point it's ridiculous, and the only reason I got what assistance I have gotten is because I eventually gave up and filed for disability a few years ago.

What has been done to me is literally a crime against humanity.

Women don't date virgins either.

"Christian" women don't date virgins.
Returners
1 / 5 (3) Feb 19, 2015
It's also a crime against God himself too.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (3) Feb 20, 2015
What has been done to me is literally a crime against humanity


A little dramatic, no? Go try surviving in say Haiti for a year, to cure yourself.

You seem to expect others to hand you things. You're inventing a societal conspiracy that is ridiculous. YOU must go out and Create the life you desire. You say you have a higher IQ than most others. Good, but the way life works is this,... even one with a 90 IQ is better than you at something,... a something that has value in the employment market. It's not what can society do for you,.... it's what can you do for yourself.
kochevnik
not rated yet Feb 20, 2015
"No self respecting woman would ever date an unemployed man." - A woman to me on a dating site after I made the mistake of asking her for her "female expertise".
Maybe. Buy many women seem attracted to criminals in prison and biker gang pimps. What a woman says and who she sleeps with are two different worlds
zaxxon451
not rated yet Feb 21, 2015
-cont'd->

And here are some relevant corporate-military-industrial quotes from Einstein:

Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war.

Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding.

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one.

It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.


Nice quote. And by the way, to his credit, Einstein was a socialist. http://monthlyrev...cialism/
zaxxon451
not rated yet Feb 21, 2015
It's not what can society do for you,.... it's what can you do for yourself.


The myth of the American Dream lives on. Sorry, we don't live in a meritocracy. Never have. But the rich would like us to believe that we do, thus legitimizing their power and wealth.
Noumenon
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 21, 2015
It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.


Nice quote. And by the way, to his credit, Einstein was a socialist. http://monthlyrev...cialism/


Because Einsten's name is associated with the epitome of genius in one field, people generally think his opinion on matters where he is not an expert, somehow carries more wait than anyone else's. It doesn't. He was painfully naive and hypocritical in political matters, and like all pacifists, demonstratingly wrong.

He was not opposed to defeating the Nazi's, militarily. Also, he supported building an atomic bomb on the basis that the Nazi's may do so,... that is support of war. He then later claimed it a mistake because the bomb was used.... convenient hypocrisy.
Noumenon
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 21, 2015
It's not what can society do for you,.... it's what can you do for yourself.


The myth of the American Dream lives on. Sorry, we don't live in a meritocracy.


At the bases of the mechanism of capitalism is Value. We do not want a society where people advance in life merely on the basis of qualifications, without also having to offer something of tangible Value.

A country that advocates liberty, egoism, and capitalism, demonstrably is better off than one that operates counter to them.

The USA government pulls in record tax revenue because of capitalism and the "evil rich".

I find most far left to be fantasyland hypocrites, that denounce capitalism while at the same time living comfortably in its wake. Move to Venezuela where they have a shortage of even toilet paper.

'If you put the government in charge of the Sahara desert, there'll eventually be a shortage of sand'

EDIT: "somehow carries more [weight] than anyone else's"
Noumenon
3.7 / 5 (3) Feb 21, 2015
It's not what can society do for you,.... it's what can you do for yourself.


The myth of the American Dream lives on. Sorry, we don't live in a meritocracy. Never have. But the rich would like us to believe that we do, thus legitimizing their power and wealth.


That's the problem with the far left mentality, they think it an injustice that someone has more than they do. Childish, greedy, and counter to freedom at a fundamental level. The rich legitimizes their wealth simply on the basis that it is none of your business what they have.
zaxxon451
not rated yet Feb 22, 2015

Because Einsten's name is associated with the epitome of genius in one field, people generally think his opinion on matters where he is not an expert, somehow carries more wait than anyone else's.


Did you read the article? I think that he makes an effective argument for socialism (at least against capitalism), regardless of his area of "expertise".
zaxxon451
not rated yet Feb 22, 2015

At the bases of the mechanism of capitalism is Value. We do not want a society where people advance in life merely on the basis of qualifications, without also having to offer something of tangible Value.


Hence my problem with capitalism. In capitalism, what has "Value" is marketable. Those without "Value" have no worth to the free market. Reducing human lives to the "Value" that they can provide is inherently dehumanizing and degrading. I find any economic system with this foundation repulsive.
zaxxon451
not rated yet Feb 22, 2015

That's the problem with the far left mentality, they think it an injustice that someone has more than they do. Childish, greedy, and counter to freedom at a fundamental level. The rich legitimizes their wealth simply on the basis that it is none of your business what they have.


This is the problem with the far right mentality. Ignorance of privilege. Privilege takes many forms, including racial, economic, social, family, access to elite schools, place of birth, personality traits, intelligence, etc. The rich are usually beneficiaries of multiple forms of privilege, but are often unwilling to acknowledge this fact so they can claim to be "self made" and then have the audacity to ridicule the poor as undeserving.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 22, 2015

At the bases of the mechanism of capitalism is Value. We do not want a society where people advance in life merely on the basis of qualifications, without also having to offer something of tangible Value.


Hence my problem with capitalism. In capitalism, what has "Value" is marketable. Those without "Value" have no worth to the free market. Reducing human lives to the "Value" that they can provide is inherently dehumanizing and degrading.


It's because you're far leftist, and thus emotionally driven. Think rationally for a minute. The 'free market system' has categorically demonstrated that it is "the greatest force for economic progress in human history" (-B. Obama),... and thus by extension, the greatest force for the human condition and standard of living for everyone, in human history.

You're not entitled to deny this fact nor to ignore past historical catastrophes caused by central planning.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 22, 2015
I find any economic system with this foundation repulsive.


That's interesting, because I find the elements of that economic system quite beautiful as a natural mechanism, that is purely emergent from freedom from the oppression of human instinctual behaviour. Individualism, egoism (a natural desire to improve ones condition), competition and survival of the fittest,.... why oppress these instincts, when obviously letting humans be humans and nature play out benefits everyone.

What I find repulsive is ad-hoc central planning as opposed to taking advantage of purely natural mechanisms in a economic system. What I find repulsive is oppression of freedom through.... collectivism, social engineering, faux social idealism, oppression of human instincts, ignoring the power of the profit motive, limiting private property, forcing people to be equal when they are not equal by nature.....
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 22, 2015
This is the problem with the far right mentality. Ignorance of privilege. Privilege takes many forms, including racial, economic, social, family, access to elite schools, place of birth, personality traits, intelligence, etc.


The far right do not ignore that,.... it's just a reality. We don't regard Reality as something that needs to be "fixed". The far left are idealists, not grounded in reality, and so think they can "fix" what they view as (natural) injustices. History and logic shows that "fixing" those "problems" are mutually exclusive to freedom of natural instincts of man.

The rich are usually beneficiaries of multiple forms of privilege, but are often unwilling to acknowledge this fact so they can claim to be "self made" and then have the audacity to ridicule the poor as undeserving.


There is the socialist greed, worrying what's on someone else's plate, and if they have more and whether it's fair, etc. Disgusting and undignified behaviour...
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 22, 2015
... the top 10% pay nearly 70% in income taxes,... they invest their money which in turn provides jobs, they buy expensive things which people must manufacture,....

If there is no one 'behind the counter' influenced by the motive of profit, then what mechanism would then ensure competition and so innovation, lower prices,...

It astounds me how clueless the far left is. Government's can't even do basic things,... but you then expect them to create a magic fantasyland where everyone is equal, through central planning?

The greatest threat to personal liberty is the liberal progressive, the social engineer, and their army of statisticians.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 22, 2015
Those without "Value" have no worth to the free market.


So your answer is to force everyone to the lowest common denominator? Even a janitor offers Value to his employer. The employment rate even in a recession in USA/Canada shows that the vast majority (a remarkable thing) has value in our economy.

Reducing human lives to the "Value" that they can provide is inherently dehumanizing and degrading.


It is not dehumanizing if humans act only in accordance with their natural instincts of egoism, which is to say, to act for their own benefit. This is a truism.

It IS dehumanizing to suppress this natural desire, on account of collectivism. Humans must either consider themselves of value (egoism) and act accordingly or consider society as a collective, as having more value than themselves. Since the latter is an unnatural thought, they must be coerced to act 'as if' it was so. The former clearly retains more dignity.
Bongstar420
not rated yet Feb 22, 2015
OK miss rosenbaum...

Those without "Value" have no worth to the free market.


So your answer is to force everyone to the lowest common denominator? Even a janitor offers Value to his employer. The employment rate even in a recession in USA/Canada shows that the vast majority (a remarkable thing) has value in our economy.

Reducing human lives to the "Value" that they can provide is inherently dehumanizing and degrading.


It is not dehumanizing if humans act only in accordance with their natural instincts of egoism, which is to say, to act for their own benefit. This is a truism.

It IS dehumanizing to suppress this natural desire, on account of collectivism. Humans must either consider themselves of value (egoism) and act accordingly or consider society as a collective, as having more value than themselves. Since the latter is an unnatural thought, they must be coerced to act 'as if' it was so. The former clearly retains more dignity.
zaxxon451
not rated yet Feb 23, 2015

It's because you're far leftist, and thus emotionally driven. Think rationally for a minute. The 'free market system' has categorically demonstrated that it is "the greatest force for economic progress in human history" (-B. Obama),... and thus by extension, the greatest force for the human condition and standard of living for everyone, in human history.

You're not entitled to deny this fact nor to ignore past historical catastrophes caused by central planning.


Quoting Obama means little to me, since the difference between Republicans and Democrats is nil when it comes to the neo-liberal destruction of our middle class through "free trade" deals and bank deregulation. This far right vision of society is basically a modern version of Feudalism with wealthy oligarchs as rulers and the rest of us as servants. This "freedom" is the end result of your ideology.
zaxxon451
not rated yet Feb 23, 2015

That's interesting, because I find the elements of that economic system quite beautiful as a natural mechanism, that is purely emergent from freedom from the oppression of human instinctual behaviour. Individualism, egoism (a natural desire to improve ones condition), competition and survival of the fittest,.... why oppress these instincts, when obviously letting humans be humans and nature play out benefits everyone.


The lion also likes the "natural order". I suspect the antelope would appreciate some regulations. Oppression is quite natural for humans. Throughout our history the strong have oppressed the weak. Capitalism/Darwinism is an extension of this idea. Real progress depends on limiting the expression of egoism and self-interest in order to create a viable society, hence the need for government.
zaxxon451
not rated yet Feb 23, 2015

The far right do not ignore that,.... it's just a reality. We don't regard Reality as something that needs to be "fixed". The far left are idealists, not grounded in reality, and so think they can "fix" what they view as (natural) injustices. History and logic shows that "fixing" those "problems" are mutually exclusive to freedom of natural instincts of man.

There is the socialist greed, worrying what's on someone else's plate, and if they have more and whether it's fair, etc. Disgusting and undignified behaviour...


So entitled... to recognize injustice and then try to make the claim that the poor shouldn't worry about what is on the plate of the rich. If my plate is empty and someone else has more than they could ever need to survive, then I am certainly within my rights to question the situation. If the answer is injustice, then I have the right to demand a share.
zaxxon451
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2015
... the top 10% pay nearly 70% in income taxes,... they invest their money which in turn provides jobs, they buy expensive things which people must manufacture,....

It astounds me how clueless the far left is. Government's can't even do basic things,... but


Wrong on both counts. Consumers create jobs. A business owner only hires a new employee when absolutely necessary (i.e. when profits are at stake by not hiring someone). If an employer can get by and make the same profits without hiring someone, then no one will be hired, regardless of how profitable the business is.

As far as the uselessness of government, I seriously hope that you don't need public roads, libraries, a military, fire departments, police, your municipal water supply, garbage pickup, mail service, public transportation, medicare, social security, or any of the countless other services provided to you.
zaxxon451
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2015

So your answer is to force everyone to the lowest common denominator? Even a janitor offers Value to his employer. The employment rate even in a recession in USA/Canada shows that the vast majority (a remarkable thing) has value in our economy.

It is not dehumanizing if humans act only in accordance with their natural instincts of egoism, which is to say, to act for their own benefit. This is a truism.


No, my answer is to recognize the injustice inherent in our society and redistribute wealth accordingly. Those who have benefited the most from privilege have the responsibility to uplift those without privilege. Society cannot function with the injustice of a privilege based caste system, which is what we are close to considering how little upward mobility is possible in our society.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2015
This far right vision of society is basically a modern version of Feudalism with wealthy oligarchs as rulers and the rest of us as servants. This "freedom" is the end result of your ideology.


LOL, you've been spoon fed myths and lies,... it's no wonder you think something to laughable as that socialism should replace the greatest economy and force for economic and human progress ever to exist in history.

Small-businesses in the USA employ over half the private sector workforce, while the vast majority of businesses are in fact micro-businesses [< 50 employees].
Noumenon
3.5 / 5 (2) Feb 23, 2015
Oppression is quite natural for humans. Throughout our history the strong have oppressed the weak.


Egoism is a natural instinct of man. Socialism in fact oppresses this instinct, as you have admitted,.. but yet you complain about oppression?! You're being hypocritical. If your system requires, de facto, coercion and oppression of natural instincts of man,... then you should embrace Oppression,.. not complain about it. Good luck selling that concept to free people.

Oppression is quite natural for governments, especially leftist ones, in fact it's the only possible mode of operation for government, when it expands it's power beyond it's basic utilitarian roles.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2015
....the strong have oppressed the weak. Capitalism/Darwinism is an extension of this idea.

You're irrationally conflating two mutually exclusive notions; competition and oppression. At the basis of both capitalism and evolution are natural elements;.... the freedom to express our natural instincts, and for nature to play out according to its own motive laws. Only ignorance of demonstrated facts and one who is misguided would regard elements nature, like egoism, as something to "fix".
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2015
Real progress depends on limiting the expression of egoism and self-interest in order to create a viable society, hence the need for government.


You're willfully ignorant as that statement was demonstrable proven wrong, via the greatest economy and force for human progress in history. You're not entitled to deny this fact.

You have admitted here that socialism fundamentally operates counter to nature, in seeking to "limit" the expression of natural instincts in man. Any system that Counters nature in this way is ugly, ad-hoc and doomed to failure,... while any system that takes Advantage of this natural force is guaranteed to succeed.

Another myth of the far left is that, 'those who advocate a pseudo-laissez-faire capitalistic system to play out in an arena of liberty and freedom, are anti-government'. This is patently false. Government is in fact fundamental for capitalism to even exist, in the protection of private property and the judicial system.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2015
There is the socialist greed, worrying what's on someone else's plate, and if they have more and whether it's fair, etc. Disgusting and undignified behaviour...


If my plate is empty and someone else has more than they could ever need to survive, then I am certainly within my rights to question the situation.


Actually, you are not. In a free country, one's right to private property is not contingent upon a criminals desire to steal it. You have no natural right either to survive on the efforts or circumstances of another.

If the answer is injustice, then I have the right to demand a share.


If you have suffered a specific injustice and can prove personal damages then yes, you have recourse in the justice system. Otherwise, in fact, you have no right to invent an "injustice" nor "social inequality" as a faux premise to steal the property of another.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2015
... the top 10% pay nearly 70% in income taxes,... they invest their money which in turn provides jobs, they buy expensive things which people must manufacture,....


Consumers create jobs. A business owner only hires a new employee when absolutely necessary ...


Consumer's of course contribute to the economy (only by egoism), but it is leftist jibberish to suggest that 'consumers create jobs' whilst diminishing that role to the business owner.....

A consumer will not voluntarily buy a product or service unless that product or service has Value to them. The business owner must create that Value and so the motive for the consumer.

How many employees are hired is directly proportional to the business owner's success in creating that Value,... and NOT at all proportional in the consumers willingness to buy a product or service he does not want.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2015
Government's can't even do basic things,... but you then expect them to create a magic fantasyland where everyone is equal, through central planning?


As far as the uselessness of government, I seriously hope that you don't need public roads, libraries, a military, fire departments, police, your municipal water supply, garbage pickup, mail service, public transportation, medicare, social security, or any of the countless other services provided to you.


I never stated that government is useless, ....just that it is inept.

Again, a myth of the far left is that capitalists/conservatives are anti-government. False.

The government has an essential role to play, and you have enumerated some examples wrt infrastructure (some counter examples as well). More importantly is protection of private property, national defense, justice system, etc.

You have avoided the original point, which I reposted in my quote.
Noumenon
not rated yet Feb 23, 2015
So your answer is to force everyone to the lowest common denominator?
No, my answer is to recognize the injustice inherent in our society and redistribute wealth accordingly.


It is not an "injustice" that some have more than others. Stop being a child. It is a natural consequence of not oppressing basic freedoms and instincts. It is irrational to suggest that that reality needs to be fixed.

If it wasn't for profit motive, and the freedom to accumulate wealth, there would not be any wealth for you to steal,.. thus everyone would be at the lowest common denominator by force.
Noumenon
4 / 5 (2) Feb 23, 2015
Those who have benefited the most from privilege have the responsibility to uplift those without privilege.


You ignore the facts I have posted above,.... " the top 10% pay nearly 70% in income taxes,... "

A free person, does not have any such moral responsibility by nature, except unto himself and to benefit his own condition.

'Leveling the playing field' by "fixing" your faux "injustices" would destroy the very mechanism that has done the most to improve the standard of living in our history.

The far left are only generous with other peoples money, ...while the capitalist is more generous with his own.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 23, 2015
Society cannot function with the injustice of a privilege based caste system, which is what we are close to considering how little upward mobility is possible in our society.


Again, you ignore the facts I have presented above,... " the vast majority of business are micro-businesses with less than 50 employees.",... and even in a near recession the employment rate is generally over 90%.

You are not entitled to deny the economic success of capitalist countries, for the benefit of all.

There can be no ' upward mobility' in a centrally planned society, except for the privilege of the elite class in such a government.

Redistribution of wealth and oppression of natural instincts of egoism, and profit motive,... is an injustice unto itself, and since is operates counter to nature,.. is worse than "injustices" as a consequence of freedom and liberty. My system works for the benefit of mankind, yours does not.
zaxxon451
5 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2015

LOL, you've been spoon fed myths and lies,... it's no wonder you think something to laughable as that socialism should replace the greatest economy and force for economic and human progress ever to exist in history.


Equating GDP with human progress is the real joke, and the rich are the only ones laughing.
zaxxon451
5 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2015

Another myth of the far left is that, 'those who advocate a pseudo-laissez-faire capitalistic system to play out in an arena of liberty and freedom, are anti-government'. This is patently false. Government is in fact fundamental for capitalism to even exist, in the protection of private property and the judicial system.


Your version of government perfectly describes Feudalism. The rich love your version of government.
zaxxon451
5 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2015

It is not an "injustice" that some have more than others. Stop being a child. It is a natural consequence of not oppressing basic freedoms and instincts. It is irrational to suggest that that reality needs to be fixed.


Wealth gained through privilege is an injustice, and you admitted so. Libertarians have no problem with injustice, which is why I find your ideology poisonous and vile.
zaxxon451
not rated yet Feb 26, 2015

You ignore the facts I have posted above,.... " the top 10% pay nearly 70% in income taxes,... "
A free person, does not have any such moral responsibility by nature, except unto himself and to benefit his own condition.


I don't give a sh*t if the rich pay 100% of the taxes. No one should be allowed to have billions of dollars in the bank. Wealth is power to oppress. Capitalism and democracy are mutually exclusive.
zaxxon451
5 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2015

You are not entitled to deny the economic success of capitalist countries, for the benefit of all.


And you're not entitled to deny the history of our country. Prior to socialist initiatives won through labor unions and progressive policies in the 20th century, our country was mired in misery and poverty, which we are returning to as conservative policies roll back economic justice.

By the way, I disagree with your idea of human nature. Humans are naturally social. Your economic system twists individuals to complete for resources and lead self-interested, self-consumed petty lives, all for the benefit of their wage slave masters.
Noumenon
4 / 5 (2) Feb 26, 2015

LOL, you've been spoon fed myths and lies,... it's no wonder you think something to laughable as that socialism should replace the greatest economy and force for economic and human progress ever to exist in history.


Equating GDP with human progress is the real joke, and the rich are the only ones laughing.


I never mentioned GDP.

There has been no economic system better at improving the human condition in human history than capitalism played out in a arena of freedom. You're not entitled to deny this fact.
Noumenon
4 / 5 (2) Feb 26, 2015

It is not an "injustice" that some have more than others. Stop being a child. It is a natural consequence of not oppressing basic freedoms and instincts.


Wealth gained through privilege is an injustice, and you admitted so.


I never admitted any such thing (I used quotes around "injustices" thus referring to your faux version). Read carefully: It is not an injustice if such privilege is a consequence of freedom.

Libertarians have no problem with injustice, which is why I find your ideology poisonous and vile.


We don't have an issue with basic realities as a consequence of freedom and liberty.

The far lefts version of "unfairness" and "injustice" is purely subjective and is an affront to freedom. I am not a greedy hypocritical lestist, so no I don't have an issue with ones wealth, I have more of a concern for their freedom to have and create wealth.
Noumenon
3.5 / 5 (2) Feb 26, 2015
I disagree with your idea of human nature. Humans are naturally social.

Of course you do, that's your only recourse,... to conform reality to your particular ideology, rather than the other way around.

Humans are social only to the extent that they benefit personally,... if the conditions allow it. What motivates all behaviour is intrinsic egoism,... no one thinks and acts for the collective over themselves as individuals. Your ideology Requires countering a natural instinct of humans by the force of government.

Egoism is a natural mechanism of survival, you wish to oppress. If you're consistent, you should not complain about injustices, you should instead embrace the injustice of oppression of human behavior as a core element of your ideology;

Noumenon
4 / 5 (2) Feb 26, 2015
Your economic system twists individuals to [compete] for resources and lead self-interested, self-consumed petty lives, all for the benefit of their wage slave masters.


People lead "self-interested lives" purely on account of their nature. Capitalism takes advantage of that fact, not causes it. An economic system that takes advantage of such a natural force as egoism, is more scientific minded and rational, than one that attempts to operate against the grain of that natural force.

No matter the form of economic system the vast majority will not own their own business, so will have to work for a wage.

In capitalism it is not "wage slavery",... it is merely a person offering Value to a business,... the core element in capitalism,... no different in principal than any other business transaction.
Noumenon
5 / 5 (1) Feb 26, 2015
And you're not entitled to deny the history of our country. Prior to socialist initiatives won through labor unions and progressive policies in the 20th century, our country was mired in misery and poverty, ....


The leftist assumption is always that things improved on account of government, rather than the other possibilities, that they would have improved anyway, and that they did In Spite of government,.... while no free market capitalist is ever under the illusion that his economy will always be stable. It's a [pseudo-] natural evolving system.

"In 1913, Ford hired more than 52,000 men to keep a [stable] workforce of only 14,000",.... The high turn over rate was due to man's free choice to leave a company. This is a power held by the workers as individuals. Henry Ford then realized,... not out of the goodness of his heart,... that if he doubled the pay for similar work, he would actually benefit financially himself with a lower turn over rat
Noumenon
3 / 5 (2) Feb 26, 2015
e. Unions are fundamentally thuggish in nature, and set up artificial conditions, not in accord with financial realities, and is ultimately parasitic to business. They will literally feed off a company until it goes bankrupt. Unions "level the playing field" and effectively guarantee mediocrity by eliminating employee competition and motive for an individual work ethic.
zaxxon451
5 / 5 (1) Mar 04, 2015

There has been no economic system better at improving the human condition in human history than capitalism played out in a arena of freedom. You're not entitled to deny this fact.


Of course I can. Prior to socialist policies the "human conditions" in this country were right out of a Dickens novel.
zaxxon451
5 / 5 (1) Mar 04, 2015

The far lefts version of "unfairness" and "injustice" is purely subjective and is an affront to freedom. I am not a greedy hypocritical lestist, so no I don't have an issue with ones wealth, I have more of a concern for their freedom to have and create wealth.


Benefiting from unearned privilege at the expense of others is the definition of injustice. You don't have a problem with injustice. I do. Greed isn't even a factor.
zaxxon451
5 / 5 (1) Mar 04, 2015

Humans are social only to the extent that they benefit personally,... if the conditions allow it. What motivates all behaviour is intrinsic egoism,... no one thinks and acts for the collective over themselves as individuals. Your ideology Requires countering a natural instinct of humans by the force of government.

Egoism is a natural mechanism of survival, you wish to oppress. If you're consistent, you should not complain about injustices, you should instead embrace the injustice of oppression of human behavior as a core element of your ideology;


I think that most people understand the importance of limiting egoism in order to form a functioning society. When we see injustice to others, a reflective and thoughtful person will understand that we could be the victim of injustice if we do not advocate for others. "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King Jr.
zaxxon451
not rated yet Mar 04, 2015

No matter the form of economic system the vast majority will not own their own business, so will have to work for a wage.


Being dependent on a master for your bread is slavery. Whether or not your master holds a whip or a pink slip, the result is the same. Capitalists are not wage slaves because they siphon the profit off of the value of the labor of their workers, or they profit from capital gains.

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