New paths to cure cancer emerge from immunotherapy trials

March 25, 2018 by Kerry Sheridan
Sue Scott's life was saved by an experimental cancer treatement trial, and she has celebrated five years cancer-free

In the winter of 2013, Sue Scott, then 36, had already planned her own funeral.

Her was spreading fast. Multiple rounds of chemotherapy, radiation and surgery had all failed. Tumors were invading her liver and colon, and squeezing her ureters.

Her last chance was to enroll in an experimental trial in which doctors were trying to partially replace patients' immune systems with T-cells that would specifically attack cancers caused by the human papillomavirus (HPV), a common .

Within a few months, her tumors completely disappeared.

This March, she celebrated five years cancer-free and according to her doctors appears to be fully cured.

"One of the biggest rewards is being a source of hope, and being an ear for other people," said Scott, who works as a realtor in Washington and advocates for cancer patients in her free time.

The trial at the National Institutes of Health Clinical Center, a US government-funded research hospital, was a breakthrough because it offered the first evidence that immunotherapy, which has already seen some success in blood cancers and melanoma, could work against cervical cancer.

A closer examination of why Scott's cells worked so well has also led to a new discovery that may be helpful in killing other kinds of solid tumors.

Lead investigator Christian Hinrichs of the National Cancer Institute told Scott the news at her follow-up visit to the NIH in February.

"Straight out of you, we got that gene sequence and now we can put it in anyone's cells and make their cells attack cancer the same way," he said.

"So that is something we are working on, trying to bring it to the clinic to see if it will work."

Doctor survived cancer

The trial was unusual in another way, too. Hinrichs, 46, is a cancer survivor himself.

He had an ocular melanoma, a rare kind of cancer that affects six in every one million people.

The small, cancerous spot was discovered in his right eye when he was in his late 20s, then a young cancer surgeon at the start of a promising career.

Dr Christian Hinrichs, lead investigator at the National Cancer Institute, had a rare kind of cancer that cost him his right eye

He underwent nearly a dozen radiation and laser treatments, each time believing the cancer was gone. But it always came back.

Finally, the only choice was to remove the affected eye, a surgery he underwent in 2005.

"Having experienced cancer and having worried about it coming back influences how you do research," Hinrichs told AFP.

"I really wanted treatments where if the cancer came back, we would have a solution to that problem."

Seeking a target

A person's immune system will naturally try to kill off any invader, including cancer, but usually falls short because tumors can mutate, hide, or simply overpower the that lead the attack, known as T-cells.

Immunotherapies that have seen widespread success, such as chimeric antigen receptor (CAR-T) cell therapies, mainly target like lymphoma, myeloma and leukemia, which have a tumor antigen—like a flag or a signal—on the surface of the cells so it is easy for immune cells to find and target the harmful cells.

But many common cancers lack this clear, surface signal.

Hinrichs' approach focuses on HPV tumors because they contain viral antigens that the immune system can easily recognize.

"What is very appealing about this cancer is the virus is right in the cancer," explained Miriam Merad, professor of oncological science at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York.

Merad, who is not involved with Hinrichs' work, described his approach as "very clever" and "absolutely critical" to unlocking the mystery of why some people respond to immunotherapy and others do not.

Stunning response, or failure

In Scott's trial, the strategy was to surgically remove one of her tumors, and isolate the T-cells that were already trying to attack it.

Researchers took these tumor-infiltrating lymphocytes (TILs) and grew billions of them to re-infuse in her blood, creating an army of immune fighters.

Besides Scott, it worked for one other patient, Aricca Wallace, now a 41-year-old mother of two teenage boys in Kansas City, Missouri and also considered fully cured after five years.

Aricca Wallace, pictured in 2014, was along with Sue Scott one of two women in a trial for whom an experimental cancer treatment worked; the approach failed for 16 other women

But the approach failed for the other 16 women in the trial.

To explore what had worked and why, Hinrichs took another look at the cells that were infused in Scott and Wallace.

He found they indeed were targeting HPV. But in Wallace, most of the T-cells were intent on destroying abnormal proteins that were unique to her tumor.

And in Scott, about two-thirds of the cells that cleared away her cancer were all targeting another signal, a protein called KK-LC-1.

This protein is also expressed in cancers that currently affect about a half million people worldwide, including some triple negative breast cancers—one of the most stubborn and lethal forms of breast —certain stomach cancers, non-small cell lung cancers and cervical cancers.

The researchers had found a new target.

"It was quite surprising," said Hinrichs.

"It is an example of where the science led us somewhere different than where we thought it might go."

Next steps

Hinrichs' lab hopes to open the first clinical trials on cancers that express KK-LC-1 in about a year. International patients are welcome to apply.

Researchers cannot say how often these experimental trials work or give a percentage rate for success. The study sizes are just too small.

National Cancer Institute deputy director Ronald Gress told AFP that Hinrichs' approach is "certainly promising."

"He represents one of the more unusual options and at the same time, an option that may truly be able to help the patients."

For Scott, learning that her could lead to other cures in the future was what she described as a "full-circle" moment.

"There is something innate in me that is going to help others? That is pretty exciting."

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greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 25, 2018
We are at such an interesting point with the fight against cancer. I have a dear friend who has non small cell lung cancer - and tried imunotherapy (keytruda). It was totally ineffective - and left her with no options. Impossible to know if taking chemotherapy would have bought her enough time for these kinds of trials. But they have to keep experimenting - and unfortunately - lives get lost. It is a tough dilemma. Here in the u.s. - we are devaluing science/education - and the prez and political class all want bigger military. It is such an upside down world.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 25, 2018
"Researchers cannot say how often these experimental trials work or give a percentage rate for success. The study sizes are just too small."

-So if the president is serious about experimental treatments, he will fund these trials enough to open them up for hundreds of people at a time.

The only way to accelerate progress appears to be to increase volume.
lives get lost
Lives get lost anyway. You listen to news radio, it seems that most of the ads are for cancer treatments and clinics. Does this indicate an epidemic we're not aware of?

At any rate there are lots of terminal cases and poor prognoses out there. Let them sign hold harmless contracts and save as many as you can.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 25, 2018
It seems like we are getting so close to curing these cancers that a few additional years could mean the difference between early death and complete cancer freedom.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 25, 2018
No disagreement on your points Otto. Yes lives get lost anyway - and i think the docs are faced with knowing that they have to lose some people that could have been given some additional time - but we have to figure out who responds, and who does not - and then figure out why. Tough calls - I am not being critical of the docs. I would like to see more resources thrown at education - and medical research - and less at weapons.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 25, 2018
Does this indicate an epidemic we're not aware of?
I don't know. I think the profit motive is part of it. https://www.reute...BN15O2A3

I had a good friend in college - his wife was in med school. She said that it was understood that we have a bargain with the world of medicine. "You keep us alive - we will pay you any amount of money" No coincidence that average doctor in my state earns $224K https://www.glass...4,23.htm and the average school teacher earns $45K http://www.teachi.../salary/
tekram
not rated yet Mar 25, 2018
If we are talking about salaries, it would be of interest to acknowledge that the antigen mentioned in this report, Kita Kyushu Lung Cancer Antigen 1 (KKLC1) was discovered by Fukuyama et al. in 2006 who generated cytotoxic T-lymphocyte (CTL) clones from regional lymph node lymphocytes of a patient with lung adenocarcinoma.

The average 2014 salary for a Japanese researcher in Kyushu, Japan was US$ 57,286. So it is not always about profit for scientists in every country.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (2) Mar 25, 2018
Salaries?

"PBS President Paula Kerger earned $632,233, NPR former President Kevin Klose $1.2 million, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting CEO Patricia de Stacy Harrison earned $298,884, plus $70,630 in additional compensation."

-You're right it's often either/or. Lots of fat to cut everywhere.
I don't know. I think the profit motive is part of it
Sure but the patients are there to treat. Clinics popping up everywhere.
and the prez and political class all want bigger military
Uh because we need a bigger military?
greenonions1
5 / 5 (2) Mar 25, 2018
Uh because we need a bigger military?
Why? We have the biggest military in the world. We spend 3 times the amount China spends - and they are number 2. I don't agree that we need a bigger military - I think we need better schools more than we need a military.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 26, 2018
Why? Because cultures remain in this world that are configured to outgrow and overwhelm their neighbors. And there is no way to stop them from doing this but to eliminate them.

You can confine them and let them drown in their own juices, as with Gaza. You can divide them up into separate countries and condemn them to perpetual conflict with their enemies, as with Kurdistan. You can try to dissolve them with western education, but this is largely a waste of time re boco harem ('western education is a sin'). You can compel them to rise up abd attack their own countries, as with the arab spring and syria. Or you can draw their armies out into the desert and kill them, as with Iraq.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 26, 2018
But since their credo always includes the military option, and as they are always seeking to find new ways to defeat your forces by any and all means, and since they will NEVER run out of clueless, hapless, starving young warriors until they are eliminated from the earth, you must have an overwhelming military comprised of the very latest in miltech to counter them.

And further, this military must be constantly engaged in fighting these cultures in order to keep itself up to date in tactics and strategies.

You cannot wait for these cultures to attack you. You must understand that attack is ALWAYS inevitable, and that preemptive attack and attritive warfare are the only strategies that will work against them.

Grateful for the opportunity to enlighten you (again).
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 26, 2018
BTW conflict most often prompts the greatest leaps in technological development, including medical. See penicillin and intravenous infusion. So it is often not either/or, and that funding a capable military can also lead to medical breakthroughs that might not otherwise happen.

The enduring threat from these religionist cultures is the mutual problem of all the superpowers, which is why Russia and China are arming themselves as never before. And this escalation is a convenient excuse for us to do the same.

A major question is whether or not they can be allowed to colonize other worlds. Perhaps there is a final effort to destroy them being planned which could explain the current worldwide increase in military spending at record levels
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 26, 2018
Otto
Grateful for the opportunity to enlighten you
I don't feel enlightened Otto - just had my view of you as a very arrogant racist reinforced.
And there is no way to stop them from doing this but to eliminate them
So which culture are we going to 'eliminate' with our world's biggest military? Please be very specific.

I see our build up of arms as much more to do with the M.I.C. - being actually a bunch of crony capitalist - who have one main goal - and that is to own the government - and keep the dollars flowing into their pet project - the military. Waste and fraud are rampant - and there is very little accountability in terms of bang for your buck. https://www.washi...5615ed5d
http://harvardpol...st-army/
cont.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 26, 2018
So when we invaded Vietnam - was this in order to eliminate one of these evil cultures? What about N. Korea? Shall we nuke them if we can't beat them conventionally?

I assume you don't subscribe to the Conservative philosophy of not being the world's police force.

Of course there is a problem with terrorism - and we need to develop appropriate responses to it. I think we would find a world with much less terrorism - if we ourselves made a commitment not to be a terrorist state - and to have a more consistent - and constrained foreign policy. I think the generals like to play with their weapons systems...
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 27, 2018
I don't feel enlightened Otto - just had my view of you as a very arrogant racist reinforced
-and My view of you as an arrogant 60s throwback bigot remains unchanged. Also willfully ignorant.

Howyadoin?
So which culture are we going to 'eliminate' with our world's biggest military? Please be very specific
I thought I was. Specifically, all cultures dominated by fundamentalist religionist doctrines which endanger world security.

And I described how this is done... containment, as with gaza... division and dispersal, as with kurdistan... attrition, as with radical elements in Pakistan who are afforded the opportunity to travel west and throw them into the guns of coalition forces.
north korea
North Korea was annihilated during the Korean war. Every commercial and govt building there was destroyed. One million starved after the allies destroyed the irrigation reservoirs. It has never recovered.
Cont>
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 27, 2018
vietnam
-is another story. It was a concerted multi-generational effort between french/euros, the US, and the Soviets to contain, attrite, and eliminate the traditional cultures there.

A resounding success.

Today that country is a valued participant in world economies. Stable, productive, it's people happy and secure.

The destruction of the ancient cultures there ended the cycle of violence that had endured for millenia. Mostly it enabled legalized ABORTION and family planning, thereby reducing growth to sustainable levels.
http://www.johnst....html#SU

-The world wars swept Eurasia clean of these caustic religionist cultures which would have prevented the ONE BILLION ABORTIONS, and the hundreds of millions of pregnancies that never took place.

Strong militaries are how this social engineering is enacted and enforced. Without them the world would now be a desertified irradiated nuclear wasteland.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 27, 2018
and keep the dollars flowing into their pet project - the military
See, this is what I mean by willful ignorance. If you THINK objectively about this empty spiel for even a moment, it collapses.

What good is wealth and money if the govt that ensures it's value, collapses?? What happened to confederate money after the war? What happened to the reichsmark after ww1? Wheelbarrows full of them could not buy a loaf of bread.

It's not wealth that militaries produce and defend - its the system that provides them legitimacy.

And obviously, militaries cannot suck up all the wealth or this will also lead to collapse as with the Soviet union. And what could the hammer and sickle buy you after THAT collapsed?

This country and it's allies could also fail and their wealth evaporate. Some, like Greece and Spain, already have.

THIS is why strong militaries are essential.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 27, 2018
Howyadoin?
Not so great right now - losing a friend to cancer - and watching the stupidity and the hate on the internet is pulling me down. Oh well.

If you THINK objectively about this empty spiel for even a moment, it collapses
No it does not. I have done a lot of thinking and reading around the subject of organization. In a colonial capitalistic mentality - the prime directive of the organization becomes self preservation. Morality is gone. Genocide is fine - as long as I survive. This is not the only world view - and in my opinion it is a poisonous world view. I notice that you would not be specific in terms of which cultures you would 'eliminate' with your massive military. I am not surprised - and understand that the colonialist is willing to engage in genocide - but then denies the act.

For perspective - Canada spends 1% of gdp on military - compared to the U.S. 3.5% I think Canada is going to be fine....

TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 27, 2018
losing a friend to cancer
Yah me too - a very close personal friend.
Morality is gone. Genocide is fine - as long as I survive
Morality of the tribe survives and thrives. Internal altruism in conjunction with external animosity. Ask an ISIS fighter (or antifeh or brooklyn hasidim or ms13) how he feels about his comrades and their families.

THAT is the only kind of morality there is. And it can be instigated, played, manipulated. It can distort facts and lead to wrong conclusions.

It's what I mean by willful ignorance.
I notice that you would not be specific in terms of which cultures you would 'eliminate' with your massive military
I was VERY SPECIFIC. Who do you think the Kurds or the gazans or the Viet cong or the north Koreans are???

Everything is apparently race to you. To a carpenter every problem is a nail and every solution a hammer.

Again with the willful ignorance.

Only solution - universal tribe. Not possible until religions end.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 27, 2018
Ask an ISIS fighter (or antifeh or brooklyn hasidim or ms13) how he feels about his comrades and their families.
Seems you make the same point I do. When tribalism is the dominant morality - we can kill the Jews - as they are sub-human - or not part or our tribe. Seems you practice exactly that tribal morality when you speak of 'eliminating' other cultures - through military means. Colonial mentality. Our culture is the true culture - and we are comfortable 'eliminating' your culture - as you are inferior.

You still duck the big question on the table. Please specify exactly which cultures you are comfortable 'eliminating.' Would you 'eliminate' everyone in India - for example? It seems that they may fit your description as a culture that is "configured to outgrow and overwhelm their neighbors." Use nukes perhaps?
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 28, 2018
practice exactly that tribal morality when you speak of 'eliminating' other cultures
Nazism is an extreme form of tribalism. Are you saying that it is immoral to want to eradicate it?

Tribalism is genetic. We have been selected for our affinity for tribal life and all its implications for millions of years. Jane Goodall observed it in apes. And yet in its most organized and refined form, religion, it poses the greatest threat to humanity today. Nazism is a pseudoreligion.
Would you 'eliminate' everyone in India - for example?
In 100 years everyone in India will be dead. And wouldn't it be great if the fundy Hindu culture that slaughtered sikhs in 1984, or that is currently slaughtering xians and muslims today in eastern india, died with them?

Many ways to destroy cultures that seek to destroy us. Most require a strong military. But doing nothing is NOT an option as THEY have no other option.

It's in their books. It's in mein kampf. Same words, same promises.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 28, 2018
You still duck the big question on the table. Please specify exactly which cultures you are comfortable 'eliminating.'
I DID. Let me be even more specific. Nazism. Islamism. And yes, any culture designed to outgrow and overwhelm the competition by forcing women to make babies until it kills them.
Use nukes perhaps?
Theres no discussing with you if you fail to read and THINK about what i write. Before ww2 Nazis made it a top priority to bear children for the fatherland. Birthrates spiked. Women got little xian medals for their sacrifice.
https://en.wikipe...n_Mother

It is difficult if not impossible to separate culture from the people who carry it. You look at cultural destruction in process - China over the past few centuries for instance - and it required a succession of measures... opium wars, taipei rebellion, communist revolution, gradual shift to capitalism and eventually democracy.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 28, 2018
And 400 MILLION ABORTIONS.
http://www.johnst...ina.html
When tribalism is the dominant morality - we can kill the Jews
You don't MAKE tribalism the dominant morality. Tribalism IS the dominant morality. And those cultures designed to exploit it need to end.

Why do you berate poor otto? Why don't you ask bill Maher how he expects to end religion?
https://youtu.be/7jETVUulGwc

-Do you really think he is proposing genocide for expressing the same sentiments???
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 28, 2018
This here doesnt read quite right...
In 100 years everyone in India will be dead
In 100 years or so, most everyone currently living in India will be dead.

That's better.

We see a great swelling of religionist tribalism in this country today. Fundy jews in the cities, Muslims in the suburbs, Mormons and evangelicals in the countryside, hispanic Catholics scattered throughout. MS13 is deeply religious.

I wonder if the resistance to expel illegals has something to do with balancing the alarming growth of indigenous fundys?

Secular culture has achieved sustainable growth while all around them tribalist cultures are growing at dangerous rates.

This should lead to interesting developments.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 28, 2018
Are you saying that it is immoral to want to eradicate it?
No. I am saying that it is immoral to develop a big military - and then to use it to wipe out 'other' cultures. We did not wipe out the Nazis. We had trials - and executed leaders and members who had engaged in acts of savagery. Nuremberg trials were very much about showing that we did not engage in indiscriminate killing. Of course there were times we did - and Hiroshima, Dresden etc. were examples. But again - we did not 'eliminate' the Nazis - as you propose. Many argue - and I agree - that Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima etc. were cruel acts of retribution. But after the surrender - we allowed axis military to return home.
You don't MAKE tribalism the dominant morality
Yes you do - hence the Hitler youth - same thing in Italy, Japan etc. These are learned behaviors. I am a Brit - I don't kill for god and country. It is not genetic.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 28, 2018
We see a great swelling of religionist tribalism in this country today
And we also see that the current youth form the least religious generation to date. https://www.barna...ation-z/

Time moves on. Your colonial thuggery will be seen for what it is - same way we currently look at slavery - something to evolve beyond, - a memory of our racist and ignorant history.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 28, 2018
We did not wipe out the Nazis. We had trials - and executed leaders and members who had engaged in acts of savagery
Of course we didnt wipe out the nazis. The soviets wiped out the nazis. 11M germans died in the war, 90% of them killed by russians. Postwar occupation and ethnic cleansing throughout eastern europe finished the job.

We are the ones who obliterated japanese imperialism, employing much the same measures.

My god you are dumb.
Yes you do - hence the Hitler youth
The natural proclivity toward tribalism is easy to exploit. It is always there, especially in the youth. The red guards, pol pot thugs, team spirit, street gangs, cliques, even the boy scouts.

It needs to be actively suppressed or else it emerges by itself. Another reason for high school and forced desegregation.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 28, 2018
I don't kill for god and country. It is not genetic
You really think you are more enlightened, more civilized than the millions of your countrymen who fought and died during the world wars? You certainly are more sanctimonious. More naive.

YOU WOULD FIGHT to protect your family, your culture, your way of life. Its in your blood whether you know it or not. Youre no different than any other human.

Why dont you rent 'Darkest Hour'?
https://youtu.be/CKW4KdOZeN8
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 29, 2018
You really think you are more enlightened, more civilized than the millions of your countrymen
Well - I certainly think I am more civilized than say the Nazis or the people who carried out these kinds of atrocities - https://www.indep...756.html

My god you are dumb
How does that help anything? I think an honest approach to history is important. I am not dumb - and think that can be demonstrated by say my college transcript - or my scores on standardized tests (did pretty well on the gre). But so what?

The point for me in all of this - is that I would like to see a world in which we spent more on medicine to cure people - and less on war to kill them. I don't think your colonial - let's kill people we don't like - attitude is helpful. So we disagree.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 29, 2018
Why dont you rent 'Darkest Hour'?
My parents grew up in the war in England. Mum lost 2 uncles - 1 to a bombing raid, and 1 was lost as sea. I think I have a better than most understanding of the wars. We are covering 2nd WW in history at high school right now. I am fascinated by the era. I think it has very little to do with your attitude about 'eliminating' cultures that you say are trying to out breed us. I understand that history is staggeringly complex. I just learned today that some think that Nagasaki was dropped as a mssg to Stalin - to tell him not to fuck with us. So the historians disagree. What I understand - is that aliens visiting our planet - would be gob smacked at the catastrophic stupidity of our species. Colonialism and racism such as you exhibit - are a poison. I hope we can grow out of it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Mar 30, 2018
Well - I certainly think I am more civilized than say the Nazis or the people who carried out these kinds of atrocities
But, youre not. You ought to be objective enough to realize that, given the same circumstances, you wouldn't be.
I am not dumb - and think that can be demonstrated by say my college blah
Yeah you're willfully astupid.
world in which we spent more on medicine to cure people
And maybe if we all owned cute little puppy dogs there would be no more war.

Dumb.
let's kill people we don't like
Every gen thinks it has finally reached a place where they are too enlightened, too educated, too altruistic, too morally superior to fight another war. And then along comes an enemy that they absolutely HAVE to fight.

No other choice. Why do you think that is?
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 30, 2018
. I think I have a better than most understanding of the wars
Why would you think that? Millions of other people have similar experiences with completely different opinions.
I understand that history is staggeringly complex
Things can seem that way when you dont accept a few facts that make it surprisingly simple.
I just learned today that some think that Nagasaki was dropped as a mssg to Stalin
It was a demonstration to the world that the superpowers, including the USSR and china, would be willing to use them to prevent anyone else from developing the capability The tripod is the most stable of structures.

The world was entering a dangerous new era of potentially world-destroying technologies. This structure was created to protect it.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Mar 30, 2018
catastrophic stupidity of our species
You think genetics is a choice for the vast majority of the human race? Teacher with en education hammer thinks it's the only way to solve the nail problem.
Colonialism and racism such as you exhibit
And you don't see that your bigotry is the seed that always grows into conflict and war? 'The other guy' is racist. So let's eliminate him.

No he's just tribal. Just like you.

I suppose you think that detectives are all serial killers just because they enjoy their work? Finding out WHY things happen doesnt mean you approve.

Acknowledging WHY things happen is not encouraging them. It IS the only thing that will lead to a solution.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 30, 2018
Otto
But, youre not
That is an opinion. You keep stating opinions - as if they are facts. Odd. I think that the people who risked their lives, and harbored Jews - were more civilized than the Nazis - who committed genocide. Yes - I think I (and many others) are more civilized than the Nazis were.
And you don't see that your bigotry
Show any evidence that I am a bigot. I am not the one asserting that there are other cultures that need to be 'eliminated' with our ginormous military. That idea is what makes you a bigot.
No he's just tribal. Just like you.
I am not tribal. I was raised in fundy xian English culture. I live in U.S. I hate the culture I live in - but I am good at getting along - and live just fine with my neighbors and co-workers etc. Stop projecting. In my view - tribalism is learned behavior - not genetic.
cont.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 30, 2018
Therein lies what I see as the fundamental difference between what and how you and I write. I understand that I am one person - with one world view. I am not right - just me. I understand that a Native American telling of the history of colonialism, would be very different from George Washington's. There are facts - and they matter. We look at those facts - through our own lens. My problem is with ideas. The idea that I have the right to 'eliminate' other cultures - is poisonous. Racism/Nationalism/Religion etc. are poisonous. I don't see education as a hammer. I see knowledge as powerful. I think that compassion is learned. I sense that you are not interested in learning that one. I am fine with living with people of different world views - as long as you don't hurt me, or try to kill me. I reciprocate. If you try to kill me - yes I will try to kill you first. I definitely think history is complex - and I wish we spent more on medicine, and less on war....
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 30, 2018
I understand that a Native American telling of the history of colonialism, would be very different from George Washington's
Whys that? If their stories were based entirely on facts then they should be identical.
I am fine with living with people of different world views
Well apparently you enjoy living in the midst of people you look down upon. You think youre better than they. You dont recognize the things you have in common with them. Youd rather feel superior when in fact they are better at getting along with others than you.

Etc.

What are your tribal affinities? You obviously have them.
were more civilized than the Nazis
Your side committed very real genocide against ethnic germans during and after the war, within their country and throughout europe. No guilt for that?
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 30, 2018
Whys that? If their stories were based entirely on facts then they should be identical
Wow - sorry to be blunt - but you really are kind of dense. They would focus on different aspects. They would view it from different world views. Shit Otto - you did not know that we have done studies - and people watching exactly the same set of events - report them back very differently.
Well apparently you enjoy living in the midst of people you look down upon
I don't really enjoy it - but I make the best of it. Spend a lot of time in my garden. I respect their right to their world view. The only way I try to change them - is through interaction. They don't hurt me - and I reciprocate. Of course - there is a lot of crime where I live. News reports every day of home invasions, murders etc. If someone tries to hurt me - I will try to stop them - and won't be bothered morally if I kill them. cont.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 30, 2018
No guilt for that?
Of course guilt for the crime of genocide. Also colonial oppression of all kinds - be it slavery, genocide, etc. I understand that history is written by the victor - none the less - in the example of the 2nd world war - I think the Axis forces carry the brunt of the guilt - for crimes against humanity. Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo - are much more debated by historians. Complicated - counter to your assertion.

Notice you could not answer the question about calling me a bigot.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 30, 2018
Wow - sorry to be blunt - but you really are kind of dense. They would focus on different aspects. They would view it from different world views
Which proves my point. Humans are prejudiced by nature. Tribal. If they were entirely objective then there would only be one story.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 30, 2018
Wow Otto - at this point it seems to me we are just arguing around in circles.
You don't see the point that seems clear to me - that tribalism could certainly be a learned trait. People who grew up in Germany around the war - identified with the German/Nazi world view. Same for people who grew up in England - identifying with the British one. And they of course happily killed each other - believing that god was on their side.

But at this point - I don't see where it is going. I have expressed my view. I wish we would invest more in education - and less in war. I think we will some day transcend war, violence, crime. That remains to be seen. Perhaps we are not capable of evolving. You have expressed your perspective. You are wanting a huge military - and to use that military to 'eliminate' other cultures. We will not change each others mind - I understand that. Seems you have trouble understanding the concept of subjective - as in people can disagree....
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 31, 2018
You don't see the point that seems clear to me - that tribalism could certainly be a learned trait
ITS NOT. Apes exhibit tribalism. Humans have been selected for their ability to live in tribes over 1000s of gens. It's genetic.

And the only way to effectively counter it is to offer another tribal identity. The west offers the 'universal tribe' concept.
I wish we would invest more in education - and less in war
Of course. Youre a teacher. It's your hammer.

Go and try to convince boko haram or ISIS that they need you to teach them how to get along and live within their means. You'll return in pieces.

Try teaching these guys
http://www.bbc.co...43593594

-Where did all these idle angry men come from? A few short years ago they were the 60% of the entire population who were in grade school. They are now the 60% living on foreign aid.

Teach them how their purpose in life isn't to outgrow and overwhelm israel.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 31, 2018
Seems you have trouble understanding the concept of subjective - as in people can disagree....
-And youre the bigot who deems people racist when their opinion differs from yours.

That's how to tell when someone is bigot.
I think we will some day transcend war, violence, crime
Yes, when we establish sustainable pop growth. War violence, crime are the result of competition for resources in the context of tribalism. Reduce growth and people will have fewer reasons to polarize and congeal into tribes for strength and protection.

This would leave the problem of psychopathy which must be dealt with at a genetic level.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 31, 2018
Otto
ITS NOT. Apes exhibit tribalism
And apes are not capable of learning? What ever - let's assume that tribalism is genetic (which you have done nothing to support). So what? Apes also exhibit violence. Does that mean that violence is genetic? Does that mean I am doomed to always practice violence? Perhaps learning can overcome inherited traits. The point for me is that I want to live in a world in which we value education - and not warfare. I thought you were arguing that tribalism can never be overcome. Now I read your last sentences - and you seem to have no point. Perhaps you could tell what your point is.

And youre the bigot
Once again you throw around the insults - without providing any support. You are the racist who says blatantly racist things. We have been around that one too much.
TheGhostofOtto1923
1 / 5 (1) Mar 31, 2018
Does that mean that violence is genetic?
Violence: killing to eat. Protecting yourself and your family from being eaten. Defending your territory from those who would steal your food source. OF COURSE violence is genetic.
Does that mean I am doomed to always practice violence?
Unless you want to be a martyr like jesus? But then martyrdom, presenting oneself and ones family for persecution and death in defense of some god, is the foulest form of violence.
You are the racist who says blatantly racist things
NO I don't. I describe things as they actually are. Bigots like you find the truth distasteful and defame those who present it to you.

Again this is like saying a homicide detective is in favor of serial killing just because he investigates serial killers.

This is why you're a bigot.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 31, 2018
The point for me is that I want to live in a world in which we value education - and not warfare
AGAIN - try selling that to boko haram and ISIS. Are you saying that we should let them attack us or our allies and not defend ourselves, or keep them from spreading BY FORCE, just because they refuse your educating?

Is that what you're saying?

They value education as well. They spend their lives being educated. And what they have learned tells that whatever YOU have to teach them, is evil. They know that you need to die for it.

And you're saying that you refuse to have a strong military capable of defending yourself from them.

They continue to grow with the intent of overrunning their neighbors and eventually us. Their education tells them this is what they are supposed to do. And they WONT STOP until they succeed or they are destroyed.

And you conclude that I'm racist because you find this obvious FACT distasteful.
TheGhostofOtto1923
not rated yet Mar 31, 2018
tribalism is genetic (which you have done nothing to support)
Yeah I have. Many times.

"Conventionally, these social differences are attributed solely to culture. But if that's so, why is it apparently so hard for tribal societies like Iraq or Afghanistan to change their culture and operate like modern states? The explanation could be that tribal behavior has a genetic basis. It's already known that a genetic system, based on the hormone oxytocin, seems to modulate the degree of in-group trust, and this is one way that natural selection could ratchet the degree of tribal behavior up or down."

-But you refuse to acknowledge it because of your preconceptions (bigotry).

Many scholars accept tribalism but are still timid in accepting all the implications because they are politically caustic. You can't be admitting that street gangs are normal. And you might end up having to conclude that the shtetl and ghetto cultures of Europe were just as aggressive as ISIS is now.
greenonions1
not rated yet Mar 31, 2018
Thanks for the support for the idea that tribalism 'could' have a genetic basis. Notice it does not say 'does'. But I accept your support. The point still stands that seems pretty obvious - that genetic disposition does not imply inevitability.

Still - I ask 'what's your point?' - especially being that you recently seemed to agree with me that we can think about evolving beyond war.

So what is your point Otto - regarding my hope that some day society will shift its values - and put more value in medical research, and less in building a war machine?

It is interesting to watch the squirming of the racists on the internet. You don't like being called out for doing things like constructing racist caricatures - and you just go into caustic attack mode - calling your accusers bigots - with no support. It seems to come down to 5 year old behavior 'I know you are, but what am I.'

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